VINTAGE AUTO RACING ASSOCIATION

OK... the B.E. is history... An event WELL DONE!!! CONGRATS!!!
Indeed the B.E. is always a challenge for management to make run groups even remotely sensible... and you guys did a great job!

But now we're back to reality...

PLEASE PUT ALL THE TIN TOPS (B/S C/S) TOGETHER, along with D, E, & F Prod... WE REALLY DO PLAY WELL TOGETHER!!!

I say simplify and go back to the DP /EP/FP etc. classes for ALL cars. Forget separating sedans from sports cars, what's the deal with that? Am I alone on this?

The idea is to re-unite under 2 liter B/sedans with the comparable sports cars and C? sedans... RATHER than putting B/S in with the P & Zcar C prod+++ group.

The FP run well with the GP & HP cars.

rickclemente wrote:The idea is to re-unite under 2 liter B/sedans with the comparable sports cars and C? sedans...

The aerodynamically-challenged run group!

Yes, Alan.....You ARE alone in your thinking!!! The CS group is one of the largest at any VARA event, often making up half the run group. Combining all the tin tops in one class might make an entire run group one of these days if things go the way they have in the past few years.

I have been pushing for a "sedan" group since the 1980's with SCCA, VARA, We love VARA, anyone that would listen....unsuccessfully, I might add, at least until now.

Admittedly, a combined sedan group will make it a bit inconvenient for us since we run cars in both the BS and CS classes....Such is life...It's still a good idea.


Rod #130 CS Mini and #45 BS Lotus Cortina

Rod,

I LOVE the CS Group we run in, and usually find a fun gaggle of well driven MGB's, Alfa's, Porsche's or BMW 2002's to play with. I just think all the classes are a little over the top to keep track of. The last time I ran in our Group the classes were (in finishing order):

DPM, ESR, DP, CS, RSR, DP1, EP, EPM, CSM, DPX, CS1, EP1, ESRX, and DSR.

Last April I ran Laguna Seca with SFR/SCCA Vintage. Similar amount and variety of cars. The classes were SBP 2 and SBP 3. Not a big deal, just a lot less expenditure in checkered flags and easier to figure out who you're racing with.

Mr. Lonely

Alan, I'll always be willing to race with you. I wouldn't want the job of trying to sort out all the run groups either, so I try not to complain.

Your missing the point, Alan. I would like to see all the SEDANS in one run group. Put all the production and sports racers in their own run group.
My hope is that one day soon, the BS, CS, DS run group will have upwards of 30 cars.

As to all the separate classes, the X's, the M's, the 1's, etc. , what can you say...We are a club that provides a class for every car...and, you may be surprised (if anyone can be surprised at anything I do) that I agree with you in the need to combine or eliminate some of the various classes. However, since the prize structure is totally based on points, since there are individuals in the club that place great value on winning these points, I see no changes in our immediate future.

My opinion remains the same...An all sedan run group! Perhaps re create the old Trans Am series of the late 60's where every sedan from Mustangs to Saabs raced together. Well, you would need to do some rules enforcement if you REALLY wanted to make something like that work!

For now? An all "tin top" race would be nice.

Rod

Interesting look at the lap times from the BBB...

The DP, EP and, FP times spread were pretty much the same.
The BS, CS were also pretty much the same spread.

If we had combined all the BS, CS and, DS in one group we would have had nearly 30 entries.
The "production" class would have ended up with something over 30 entries.
Putting all the open wheeled cars in their own group (split start vees?).

No "extra" run group. How can this be a problem?

Rod

By "all" the open-wheeled cars, I'm assuming you mean putting the FVs with the FFs (and not the WIngs-and-Slicks open-wheeled cars).

The FF group, had 12 cars at the BBB, which seemed like one of the bigger showings for FF cars in quite a while (despite getting our own group).

As an FF driver, I would support running both of these groups together, because I think it would be great to just have a fatter field of open-wheeled cars in the group. Some of the faster FF guys may disagree, I don't know. I would assume the FV drivers would prefer to run in a field of all open-wheeled-cars, but you never know...

Despite the FV cars being slower than the FF cars, the FV drivers are all really experienced, excellent drivers, so it's not like the fast FF drivers would have to worry about safely passing a slower FV driver. Arguably it could be safer for the faster FF driver to pass an well-driven FV, than to pass a slower FF car (although 99% of the FF drivers are also excellent, experienced drivers) (and guess who the represents the remaining 1%!)

Using Willow Springs as an example, the slower FF drivers and the fastest FV drivers are doing similar lap times (1:42). The fast FF guys are doing low :30's, the average time about :34's. The slower FV cars are doing :50's. The two groups have run together before, so there is precedent.

I like the sedans with the sports cars/sports racers as it is now. There is always someone to race with as it is easily the largest run group and I'm always impressed with the quality and skill of the drivers. I think we are all used to each other and there is some merit to that.

That being said, I wouldn't mind trying the all tin top race as an experiment just to see what size of field it would attract. If the field was significantly smaller than the size of the run group we typically have in CS, then I would prefer going back to the larger field.

At the Big Bore Bash I had my best racing with classic sports cars. Alfas, Tr-4s, Porsche 912's and usually MGB's (not too many MGB's at WS for some reason this time). Several of those cars were running about the same leisurely pace I was and I would miss that close competition in an all sedan race.

Alan, you were 6th out of fifteen CS cars in a 40 car run group and 11th overall. That puts only a few non sedan cars ahead of you. In any race that was sedan only, using my grouping above, you would have still been 6th in class and approx 15th OA. Your lap times were =< than several BS class cars.

Again, how can this be a bad deal? Instead of racing production cars you would have been surrounded by sedans.

Leisurely pace, my ass. 1:44's in that Volvo the way the track conditions were --- not too shabby!

Rod

Alan, I am trying very hard to get my MGB running correctly so we can race again. Looking forward to that!!

Okay Rod, after those kind words I'll give the "All Tin Top" race group a try (if you can talk VARA into it). The new run group just might motivate some sedans we haven't seen for a while to come out and make the show. I can think of about 10-15 sedans that haven't raced for a year or more that would fit right in.

Hey Paul, how about an MG Magnette ZA to run with the sedans? Hope you get the old Racing Grandma...er your MGB sorted soon so you can come and play in 2010. Maybe you can make one of those Arizona winter races before the VARA season begins. You are definitely missed out there. Don't forget, you are my lead car for surviving the Enduro's!