Jerry,

I have a Lifeline fire system installed in my car. During tech at Fontana I was told that the bottle for my fire system is not large enough. Specifically, that the bottle did not hold the required 5 lbs. of chemicals. I was told to change the bottle to a larger one and my log book was noted to that effect.

I am preparing my car for next season and have removed the bottle. On the lable on the bottle it states "weight 5 1/2 lbs. not including head." It seems to me that if the bottle says that it is a 5 pound bottle then thats what it is.

Based on what it says on the bottle do I still need to replace it?

Respectfully,
Bart Smith

Hi Bart:

That was a small bottle.....and as I remember it had no capacitiy tag or it was not mounted so the capacity tag is visible, and i think it was an AFFF system. They need more weight and volume of extingishant than the Halon systems.

What you need to have is 2.2 Liters or larger capacity in a AFFF system bottle.

For example the SPA bottles that are 2.25L are 6.32" dia x 12.4" long and there is a slim line model that is 5.13" x 14.60". (also 2,25L)


What you need to do with ANY AFFF bottle you use is to make sure it either has a capacity tag (showing 2.2 L or larger) affixed to the bottle and visible AND carry a spec sheet on the bottle as well as a sheet that shows the number of nozzles it supports. Reason for the nozzle number and postioning is there is no standardized number of nozzles or placement of nozzles (which is critical in AFFF) from mfgr to mfgr.....so if there is question on the number of nozzles and placement , the inspector can referr to the spec sheets.

Hi Jerry,

Thank you for the reply. My system is filled with Halon. Do I need to buy a new bottle? I would rather not but want to comply with the rules.
Thanks again.
Bart Smith

On the lable on the bottle it states "weight 5 1/2 lbs. not including head." It seems to me that if the bottle says that it is a 5 pound bottle then thats what it is. """""

Ok......Halon. Lifeline SPA has not sold Halon units for a number of years due to European rules on Halon use , thus I thought it was AFFF.

What we require in a Halon system, is net weight of Halon of 5 pounds. A five pound Halon system, from Safecraft or Firebottle weighs about 8 pounds gross...5 # of Halon and the rest is the weight of the bottle and seal assembly.

Your label should have a net weight of halon listed, as well as the " 5 1/2 Lbs." which is the gross weight. Very likely at 5.5# gross you have about 3# of Halon in that bottle. If the bottle is steel, then it likely is holding even less than 3#. Re look a the label or weigh the bottle.

Short answer.....there is not enough Halon capacity in that system.

Thank you Jerry. I will weigh the bottle and then we will both know.

Good information.

Jerry tou are the voice of reason by defalt ( you try to answer questions with-out bias). I need to replace my firesystem please if you can spell it out. Halon, Aquios fluid, Dupont fe36, and3M Novec 1230. Please if you can inform the racing members what is legal and what size per class as per system style. I am leaning towards the 3M Novec, seams to be the greenest non contaminating system. I may have to ballance my zeal for green if it takes to mutch green. I can'not spend brown. We love your dedication so do your best. If only your oppinion please say so.

Thanks and keep it up, Bruce

Bruce Hayes wrote:I may have to ballance my zeal for green if it takes too much green. I can't spend brown.

While you are at it Jerry....

IF money and environment weren't factors....how would you rank their effectiveness on fuel fires in an unconfined area?

Now factor in their effect on the environment and how would you rank them?

Thanks!

hi Bruce.........

I just composed a long response to you.......spent about 1/2 hour between phone calls here tying to make a living......guess what ....there is some sort of a time out on this board.....went to press preview...and gone...zero text .....none.

I'll make it short.

Halon is not certifiable.
SCCA has mandated SFI certification on new cars logbook date 2009
As a result, FE36 is very expensive to buy a system.
Halon non certified are now well over $400 -500 for a 5# system.
AFFF systems that have certification are also expensive because of the cert costs.
We accept 2.3 Liter or larger. follow mfgrs install for pacement and number ofnozzles.

AFFF is very good in supression but nozzles MUST be installed to give a shower head effect as your spraying liquid OVER a fire and not filling a cavity like Halon does.

Everything in Europe is now and has been for years AFFF.

Anything 3M does /make is magic. Novec is just an AFFF solution (trade name) just like Cold Fire.

For next year I am removing the 10 year old 5# Halon piece and using AFFF.

Use AFFF system of your choice. Green is nice but the incidece of bottle firings are slim and none.

AFFF systems are internall prssurized OR externally pressurized by an external CO2 cartridge. Field refillable. Keep that in mind.....ask Daryl De Arman about carrying a spare CO2 cart and disc.

DD:

IF money and environment weren't factors....how would you rank their effectiveness on fuel fires in an unconfined area?

Now factor in their effect on the environment and how would you rank them?
------------------------------------------------------------
Iv'e never been there and hope I never will. And I dont need to test the system(s) in real time mode.

Environmentally speaking. Halon is high on the radar screen. Even tho discharges due to car fires are very rare, accidental discharges are not commonplace but the do happen (as you know).
Possibly leakage, however small is a factor. 5000 fire bottles leaking just a tad.....not as bad as R12 in air conditioned cars....but a leak all the same.

Alright Jerry

I really felt safe with the HALON systems I had. I knew there wasn't anything available that was going to be more effective.

Until one day.....oops....now I need to replace it with something else.

I bought a AFFF system, knowing I wasn't going to be as safe as I would be with HALON in the unlikely event of a fire, and I was going to have a MUCH BIGGER MESS in the more likely event of an accidental discharge.

The Dupont stuff looks like a good solution, no matter the cost. Reading through their website about the stuff, looks like it might be an inhalation concern for anyone with cardiac issues...

Weren't their other substances that the military was experimenting with....PurpleK or something like that??? Anything else available other than a can of pressurized MR. Bubble?

I bought a AFFF system, knowing I wasn't going to be as safe as I would be with HALON in the unlikely event of a fire, and I was going to have a MUCH BIGGER MESS in the more likely event of an accidental discharge. """""

DD..........

Well as far as I know, an AFFF system is pretty effective. Nozzle placement has to be correct and if the system is field fillable the instructions have to be followed. There is no big mess with AFFF. What residue is left washes off easily with water.

Purple K is a powder I believe. ?

I do know that on alcohol cars there is a slighly different type of additive that has to be used in the bottle....AR AFFF.

Up to this point I have been satisfied with all the responses and have deferred to Jerry's expertise in tech.

However...In the last few years before I retired I was in a position that required much fire and safety training for myself and my crew. We had a course in respirator equipment (Scott Airpac) safety and use at the BP and Union 76 refineries, "fire and safetyl" at Mobil and, "Fire control at Northrup (Pico facility)".

Having been present at a controlled Halon demonstration at Northrup I can say it was very effective in a closed room. I have my doubts as to the level of effectiveness in an open air release such as a race car, based on personal experience...
I have seen two accidental discharge of Halon systems in race cars (both sedans) and one "on purpose" discharge in the pit lane of RIR (Tex Guthry's BS Lotus Cortina...oil fire). I had my head inside the drivers window when it went off...No ill effects (I guess) but the discharge was TOTALLY INEFFECTIVE as to protecting the driver!!!

On the other hand, my experience in the two 'fire schools' at Mobil, I can say that the AFFF is the most effective fire suppression method I have ever seen. Yes, it is a bit messy but cleans up with water and elbow grease. My choice for fire system is the larger 3.375 litre AFFF system with three discharge nozzles in our Mini Cooper and Lotus Cortina...one directed at the fuel pumps above the fuel cell, one at the carbs and, on at me. (I do have an old 5 lb. Halon system in an ex SCCA GT-4 Toyota...it's pretty old, though).

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/group. ... FIRESYSSPA

More FYI...In the early days my first fire extinguisher for my race car was a 'carbon tetraflouride' unit that was very effective, clean AND, as it turns out, very hazardous...to the point of being deadly...It worked great in the 50's. My second system was Purple K...I still have several bottles around the shop...I have used several over the years....What a mess to clean up...better than the fire, I suppose.

My dad was a firefighter for 43 years and I grew up around "fire safety" concerns. Having been up close and personal with a race car fire on a couple occasions, I am a rabid advocate of proper driver protection including, but not restricted too, fire safety.

Rod #130 CS Mini Cooper and #45 BS Lotus Cortina

I have a little information about SCCA and FIA fire suppression systems.
First Halon is banned in SCCA as of Jan. 1. I do not know if thier is a grace period for updating the systems. Legal systems must be FIA or SFI 17.1 approved. AFFF and Dupont FE36 are approved. I do not know the agent bottle size requirements for different classes of cars. Dupont FE36 is a gas discharge no ressidue system ( simular to Halon in application). All the suppliers I have talked to say that FE36 will be banned in the near future. I have not found a firm date yet.

The wild card in this is 3M Novec1230. This is a liquid discharged into a gas with no residue. According to the data this is the greenest fire fighting gas to date. Spa has the systems pakaged and ready to go, but are waiting for FIA final approval ( expected early January). The system is a four nozzel, electric fired,5.5lbs agent system. The system is not cheap, expect to pay right around $1000.00

I am a special effects tech. As a result I have ben fire safety for many, many car sized fires. If you believe that a racing fire system is going to completely protect you and your car you are very wrong. Our fire systems and protective garments are only intended to give us time to get out of the fire. A engine genade fire or fuel fire can quickly overpower all your protection.

Several types of "HALON"....1301 and 1211 most common. One is more for a confined area (computer equipment rooms is a common application), the other for an open area.

The Purple K is extremely effective but very corrosive and a mother to clean up. Purple K is most effective in liquid fires....I believe it was the standard on oil rigs and aircraft carriers for a long time (if not currently)...the issue with Purple K, I've learned, is that you discharge it to save your butt, not the car because it is such a mess and highly corrosive it is likely to do a bunch of damage itself.

Mr. Bubble under pressure with a few sprinklers....got it

Bruce Hayes wrote:I have a little information about SCCA and FIA fire suppression systems.
First Halon is banned in SCCA as of Jan. 1. I do not know if thier is a grace period for updating the systems. .

For clarification, Halon is not banned by the SCCA. All cars that have log books prior to 1/1/09 will be grandfathered. Only cars registered on or after 1/1/09 will be required to have SFI or FIA compliant devices.

From the 2009 SCCA GCR:

The following is acceptable for cars registered before 1/1/09:
On-board fire systems shall use Halon 1301 or 1211, with
a five pound minimum capacity (by weight). Alternatively,
on-board fire systems may use AFFF or equivalent surfactant
foam material, 2.25 liter minimum capacity (by volume). All
AFFF fire system bottles shall incorporate a functional pressure
gauge and shall be marked with the manufacturer’s recom-
mended “filled weight.” CO2 cartridge propellant fire extin-
guishing systems are permitted provided that the seal of the
manufacturer specified CO2 cartridge is not punctured and the
fire bottle is equal to the weight specified by the system manu-
facturer.