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VINTAGE AUTO RACING ASSOCIATION
The West Coast Leader In Vintage Auto Racing
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Joseph P Siam
Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Posts: 22
Location: Chatsworth Ca 91311
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 Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:20 am Post subject: |
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Hay Tom don't you remember he was the guy we were dicing with until you conducted a soil sample while in first place. The three of us had a great race swapping spots he finished 1st I finished 2nd.
Joe
_________________
Team owner
Chequered Flag Racing
Racing VARAs Fastest FP SPITFIRE
Soon to be racing a CP 1 Lotus Elan
WWW.chequeredflagracing.net
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Mark Scott
Site Admin
Joined: 01 Nov 2007
Posts: 100
Location: Burbank, CA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:35 am Post subject: Cars and Coffee |
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Nice meeting you to Ron.
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Mark Scott
#267 Porsche 911 "LEGAL" CP-GT
With Legal Motor from the 60's (like it should be)
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Joe Harlan
Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Oregon City, Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Ron Carter wrote: |
Tom, I believe Tim did until he had an off track and bent up the front of the Roadster AKA Zoadster. Since Tim lives close to LS he packed up the Zoadster and brought down his other roadster and raced it that weekend.
Mark,
It was nice to meet you at cars and coffee this last weekend....
I think that there might be something that the BOD is overlooking in regards to the whole CP class thing....Please keep in mind that this has no direct bearing on me, as I do not run an "over-bored" Datsun of any type. I run in D production in my Datsun Roaster and my BRE Z replica remains a 2.4L trailer queen.
Personally I think that all of our cars should be run the way they were back in the day. But I do know that there are a percentage of Datsun racers who would like to get out (at their peril) and race with the Porsche CP-GT guys. Why is that a problem? I think that the BOD would look at this as a good rivalry and less of a class struggle.
As for the "reason" for a plethora oversized Datsun motors, is that the 2.4 blocks, oem rods, pistons and cranks have not been available for close to 35 years now, and they are hard to find in a condition where they can be prepared for race. Datsun Nissan 2.8's have been available new for over 30 years, and may still be. The ease of availability and lower cost associated with a 2.8 is what makes them attractive, along with a little more displacement...
I think this is a situation where there is a friendly rivalry and that is not necessarily bad, as long as it can be managed in a fair manor. It makes sense to me, that if the guys who run a Datsun 2.8 want to race in the GT class, and it is a level playing field that you should consider this as a viable alternative to the CP-M class.
I am interested why the BOD has taken a stand on the 2.8 Datsun motor, and why they won’t allow that in CP-GT, perhaps you can explain that in more detail.
Also... Is there another reason the Porsche guys want to be separated? It seems by your comments that you do not want any other makes to run in the CP-GT class, why is that?
Thanks,
Ron |
Cores are not an issue, I have at least 9 of them.
_________________
71 240z
70 BS 510
59 Bugeye
1998 DP 240sx
2003 GTL Sentra Spec v
Builder of many fine cars.
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Ron Carter
Joined: 21 Nov 2007
Posts: 38
Location: Sunny Oceanside CA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Cores are not an issue, I have at least 9 of them. |
I guess it is a situation of looking in the right place...
Ron
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67.5 Datsun Roadster
70 240Z BRE Replica
70 510 "B" Sedan (under restoration)
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Joe Harlan
Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Oregon City, Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:42 am Post subject: |
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Ron, for the biggest part most of these cars had L28's in them as the L28 was a CP/GT2 package since about 1975. Once SCCA classed the L28 nobody ran the L24 (at the same weight) There are plenty of blocks/cranks around to make engines from. I guess the real issue is if CPGT is made up of 2.5 liter nonstandard B/S engines then why not allow the 2.8 or allow the L24 crank to be put in those motors which ends up at at 2.5 to 2.6 liters. This would allow these guys to not have to throw out good engines and offer a competitive place fir them to run.
_________________
71 240z
70 BS 510
59 Bugeye
1998 DP 240sx
2003 GTL Sentra Spec v
Builder of many fine cars.
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Efrain Olivares, Jr.
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 23
Location: Glendale, CA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:26 am Post subject: |
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Because there is that whole 1972 and earlier thing that everyone seems to want to ignore.
_________________
"What's that little red car?"
"That's a Sprite."
"There's no way it's a Sprite. It just passed a 911."
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markbelrose
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| Joe Harlan wrote: |
| Ron, for the biggest part most of these cars had L28's in them as the L28 was a CP/GT2 package since about 1975. Once SCCA classed the L28 nobody ran the L24 (at the same weight) There are plenty of blocks/cranks around to make engines from. I guess the real issue is if CPGT is made up of 2.5 liter nonstandard B/S engines then why not allow the 2.8 or allow the L24 crank to be put in those motors which ends up at at 2.5 to 2.6 liters. This would allow these guys to not have to throw out good engines and offer a competitive place fir them to run. |
I believe my car is the one Mark Scott referred to in an earlier post as having run with a 2.8L motor for the past several years. A few years back I purchased a package of 2.8L parts which I've been going through, rather than attempting to acquire L24 parts for each ensuing build. Additionally I believe my car ran briefly as a GT car in the mid seventies, as the fender flares on my car are likely 30 years old.
I'm wondering if the long term solution regarding 2.8L motors is when vintage racing organizations eventually reclassify "vintage" as up 1975, vs. the 1972 limitation in effect. Does anyone know if such discussions have taken place within VARA or any other vintage racing organizations?
Mark
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C.Plavan
Joined: 02 Nov 2007
Posts: 30
Location: Fresno, CA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:21 am Post subject: |
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Hmmm... 1975....That would be great to know a year in advance because I have been longing for racing a Porsche RSR with a 3.0L  . I have 3 911 aluminum cases that im sure 1 would love to turn into a 3.0L. Then the Porsche guys could use 1975 911 chassis' that are galvanized for better rust protection (AND CHEAP!). Then there are the RSR flares and wings....super wide rubber, I'm drooling....
Where do we stop?  
_________________
Thanks,
Chad Plavan
#02 Porsche 911 E CP-GT (2.4L With 60 over)
Documented FIA and IMSA legal through 1972
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Joe Harlan
Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Oregon City, Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Efrain Olivares, Jr. wrote: |
| Because there is that whole 1972 and earlier thing that everyone seems to want to ignore. |
Whos ignoring it? The only place that engine combo was ever legal in the US was IMSA. If thats the case then why call it CP anything?
_________________
71 240z
70 BS 510
59 Bugeye
1998 DP 240sx
2003 GTL Sentra Spec v
Builder of many fine cars.
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Joe Harlan
Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Oregon City, Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| C.Plavan wrote: |
Hmmm... 1975....That would be great to know a year in advance because I have been longing for racing a Porsche RSR with a 3.0L . I have 3 911 aluminum cases that im sure 1 would love to turn into a 3.0L. Then the Porsche guys could use 1975 911 chassis' that are galvanized for better rust protection (AND CHEAP!). Then there are the RSR flares and wings....super wide rubber, I'm drooling....
Where do we stop? |
Same deal the car was not allowed those things in 1975 production car rules.
_________________
71 240z
70 BS 510
59 Bugeye
1998 DP 240sx
2003 GTL Sentra Spec v
Builder of many fine cars.
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Daryl DeArman
Joined: 11 Nov 2007
Posts: 65
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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I think part of the disconnect here is because of the "as raced in the USA" clause in the VARA rule book.
Some classes/groups within VARA reference the 1972 GCR. Others make no mention of it.
VARA's production car rules state "as raced in the USA", that doesn't mean only in the SCCA. If that was the intent, then it should have spelled out "in the SCCA with the following exceptions:"
The fact that the classes are called AP, BP, CP,etc compounds the issue because those class designations are what the SCCA used.
I am of the opinion that you can't keep it 1972 forever. VARA has been around for 35 years or so. What was the year cut off in 1973? I am sure they weren't calling 1972 cars Vintage back then. The problem you then create is how do you allow newer (30 year old) cars in without making the 1972 and older cars uncompetitive? What year did VARA change the cutoff to 1972?
VARA already has WSR's, newer FC's, Formula Mazdas and FSV's that are all much newer than 1972...does that fact bring more entrants than it keeps at home or sends elsewhere ? Don't know.
Last edited by Daryl DeArman on Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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J Wilkins
Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Posts: 55
Location: Glendale, CA.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| markbelrose wrote: |
I'm wondering if the long term solution regarding 2.8L motors is when vintage racing organizations eventually reclassify "vintage" as up 1975, vs. the 1972 limitation in effect. Does anyone know if such discussions have taken place within VARA or any other vintage racing organizations?
Mark |
Mark- Yes it has been discussed and still being discussed.
No finalization by the BOD has been made for anything involving GT-
FYI- Some Vintage groups are following more of the line of SCCA GCR as far as engine,weight and motor specs for those later cars, so that the Older cars are competitive. Those that are running specs other than SCCA have had to bring actual documentation from those sanctioning bodies to prove their build. So the answer is yes Vintage groups around the USA are allowing up to 1978 and later production.
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John Wilkins
'66 Spitfire #892 DP
'71 240z #24 CP
Verified 2.4L as the GCR states-
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J Wilkins
Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Posts: 55
Location: Glendale, CA.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Daryl DeArman wrote: |
VARA already has WSR's, newer FC's, Formula Mazdas and FSV's that are all much newer than 1972...does that fact bring more entrants than it keeps at home or goes elsewhere ? Don't know. |
I'm with you on this one Daryl- I think the younger contingent that we could attract would be beneficial, by opening up the years to later production. VARA when first started was calling 20 year olds cars Vintage, now 30+ year old cars are Too new in production?? Well except for Open Wheel- Something to think about for sure! 
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John Wilkins
'66 Spitfire #892 DP
'71 240z #24 CP
Verified 2.4L as the GCR states-
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TroyTinsley
Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I started this thread to understand the new max weights allowed in CP, not to drive a wedge in the Group. This Group obviously has some very strong opinions on what makes up Vintage Production Car racing, and the differences in these opinions are not going to solved by Solomon himself. Hopefully we can have some great racing in 2008, and have a beer in the pits afterwards. Hopefully the Group can continue the discussion of finalizing rules in person, face-to-face, because this de-personalized internet thread is creating division, not the unity required for long term viability.
As the originator of this thread, I request it officially closed.
_________________
Troy Tinsley
'71 240Z #66, CP
Yellow Dog Racing
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Efrain Olivares, Jr.
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 23
Location: Glendale, CA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Joe Harlan wrote: |
| Efrain Olivares, Jr. wrote: |
| Because there is that whole 1972 and earlier thing that everyone seems to want to ignore. |
Whos ignoring it? The only place that engine combo was ever legal in the US was IMSA. If thats the case then why call it CP anything? |
That's a separate issue.
VARA rules do not strictly align with SCCA GCRs, as much as some of you would like to believe that they do. Thus, VARA class designations are not exactly congruent with SCCA's 1972 classes.
The rulebook says, "as raced in the USA." It also says "1972 and earlier".
So, how does a 280z fit in there? You can't present an argument based in logic that shows a 280z conforms to the rules. What you are suggesting is changing the rules to allow cars up to 1978 to run. Which would make it okay to buy a car - knowing it is not legal - and expect the club to change the rules to make your car legal. Already they are allowed to race in Modified - I'm not quite sure what more you could ask for.
How about just racing a legal car?
On a separate note, I think one of the reasons most clubs haven't moved to a later production car date is because of the advent of slick tires, which represent a massive jump forward in speed and car preparation.
_________________
"What's that little red car?"
"That's a Sprite."
"There's no way it's a Sprite. It just passed a 911."
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